Curse

Patrograd · Nov 27, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

I think most people accept that NPC behaviour at VOD is pretty broken and allows all manner of exploits.

I was thinking about how this could be solved, and would like to hear other people's thoughts on the subject

My first idea on this was to create an NPC "trickle" at VOD rather than the current mass base exodus. How about something like this:

20 mins: Any remaining footmen and other non base NPCs set off for the centre
21 mins: Any NPCs remaining not in the Guild Lord's personal escort set off for the centre (perimeter archers etc)
22 mins: The knights leave base
23 mins: Guild Lord's archers leave base
25 mins: Guild Lord and bodyguard leave base

Thoughts?

Thomas.knbk · Nov 27, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

/signed. Glyphsac+MS=ftw now, this would fix it

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 27, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Trickling would reduce the AoE exploits, but bear in mind that it's also going to greatly reduce the importance of NPCs at VoD. When the VoD shout is flying around, battles are quick and decisive - in my experience, multiple kills are scored at the flagstand before the NPCs even arrive under the current system. If they come a few at a time, a team with a massive NPC disadvantage will still have plenty of time to wipe their opponents before the bulk of the NPCs approach. From there they can kill the remaining archers and guard at their leisure.

psycho854 · Nov 27, 2006, 01:16 PM // 13:16

maybe it would be a good idea, too only send out the archers and leave the GL some kind of escrot against straight ganks. like send out everything but the bodyguard and the 2 archers around the GL. the knights may go, coz theyre kinda the only thing that deals real dmg at the flag then but leaving the GL at least some escrot would make straight 2or3 man ganks at 23mins pretty much harder!

so far
psycho

Drewfense · Nov 27, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I think it would greatly strengthen spike teams (and in my book that is a no no). For one, spikes are sick at VoD. If you haven't out pressured the spike until VoD, often the surge of NPCs is the one thing that finally overcomes the heavy defense of the spike team. The other reason is the guild lord would have somewhat of an NPC bodygaurd up until he actually goes to the flagstand, making that last minute gank much harder.

Patccmoi · Nov 27, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Honestly, you'd likely just change an exploit for another. For example right now it's true that GoS-Meteor Shower owns NPCs (or any other heavy AOE really). But if they come more or less one after the other, a spike team could spike them down as they come up and you could have full NPCs vs none they wouldn't care much because one wave of NPCs would be down before the second comes. And it would be even BETTER for them because some NPCs would remain longer at base slowing any kind of gank attempt (which usually works great vs spike teams, do some gank to make them run around or split and clear their NPCs at stand, etc.)

Also i think that leaving Bodyguard till 25 min would be a pretty big mistake because Bodyguard at flag stand is what gives the advantage to a team that managed to get a NPC advantage if it comes down to NPC fight. Because that bodyguard will deal a lot of damage to archers with his AOEs. If he comes alone after other NPCs are pretty much decimated, he won't be useful at all. And a lone bodyguard doesn't really defend the GL against a gank, he just dies in about 2 seconds.

But really i think that if it's changed it would likely just end up being abused in another way. People adapt, and good guilds wanting to win will find a way to exploit VoD soon enough and for all we know it might end up far worse than it is now. I'm not too sure what can be done about that GoS-Meteor Shower atm, but i don't think that making NPCs come in wave is a good solution.

moriz · Nov 27, 2006, 02:47 PM // 14:47

i think a much better idea is to simply improve the AI of the npcs: make them able to scatter away from large AoE spells. so the glyph+MS combo will only score one or two kills, instead of all of them.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 27, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i think a much better idea is to simply improve the AI of the npcs: make them able to scatter away from large AoE spells. so the glyph+MS combo will only score one or two kills, instead of all of them.

QFT. The main problem is that NPCs don't flee from met shower because of the spread out hits. Just make them flee from it after the first hit and it will be reduced to 1-2 kills.

Kabale · Nov 28, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I'm sure the AI would run off, it's just that they try and do Troll Unguent/Healing Signet instead of running off after the first hit, and they usually die after the second...

Byron · Nov 28, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Great minds think alike.

page 2, paragon impending nerf???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

The VoD mechanic definitely needs reworking, most of all the NPCs. I think this was discussed in a thread some months ago.

I suggested that NPCs stagger their advance rather than all rush out to the flagstand at once. This helps prevent mega-ganks, block/ganks, and whatever kind of Glyph of sac/aoe you can bring to play. If the NPCs were staggered by say, one minute, so that at 20:00 all outer-base NPCs walked to stand, then at 21:00, all inner-base NPCs walked to stand, and finally at 22:00 the cage NPCs walked to stand, I feel it would greatly reduce the effectiveness (gimmicks?) of VoD builds. Not to mention catapult tactics, which can (IMHO) unfairly alter the course of a match.

I think this, or something similar, would be a suitable fix to the trend of NPC builds; forcing teams to take risks, as squidget said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Provide methods for good teams to finish games well before VoD (or rework VoD) and people will have that much more incentive to play dangerously and take risks.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 28, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

To be honest, if they had them trickle out you might as well have them NOT come out. I don't need to relist all the reasons that have already been given.

tbh, I think they should just leave it. As you said, people have accepted the fact that it's broken and have been dealing with it for some time now. It still forces them to use up somebodies skill bar with GoS+ met shower. Thats two skills on a bar that really aren't going to get a whole lot of use. Not to mention, that bar will probably have a rez of sorts meaning that bar is already 3/8 filled, not leaving a whole lot of utility on that char IMO.

Brother Redmund · Nov 29, 2006, 03:06 AM // 03:06

The idea raises the possiblity of shifting the weight of importance away from playing for the npc advantage at vod though, and could change gvg dynamics a little. For better or worse, I don't know, I guess it depends on play styles.

leeky baby · Nov 29, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

i think all that needs to be done is for the to come out not so clumped together, but stil all arrive but in a side ways line instead of a ball.

DieInBasra · Nov 29, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

tbh, I think they should just leave it. As you said, people have accepted the fact that it's broken and have been dealing with it for some time now. It still forces them to use up somebodies skill bar with GoS+ met shower. Thats two skills on a bar that really aren't going to get a whole lot of use. Not to mention, that bar will probably have a rez of sorts meaning that bar is already 3/8 filled, not leaving a whole lot of utility on that char IMO.

It doesn't really matter. The thing about GoS+MetShower is that you don't need to win or even make kills before vod. You just play very defensivly the whole match, once VoD comes up, be very offensive, own thier NPCs, and your set. iQ proved this strategy by getting to the finals one tourny, and winning the next. In a ladder setting it isn't as bad, but in a tourny setting where you don't mind 20 minutes games and it's already going to drag out that long if you are both at the same level, then it's ridiculous.

JR · Nov 29, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Not to mention, that bar will probably have a rez of sorts meaning that bar is already 3/8 filled, not leaving a whole lot of utility on that char IMO.

Who cares about space for 'utility' if it wins you matches?

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 29, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

GoS + Meteor Shower isn't the instant win a lot of people make it out to be. On its own, it won't even kill the archers. I'd trade a high-spec Putrid at VoD for GoS + Shower in a second.

Meteor Shower was the obvious part of iQ's build, since it made giant rocks fall out of the sky. However, they also had a trapper, Rodgort's Invocation, a Ritualist to protect their own spirits, Earthshaker, and on and on and on. AoE is very effective against clumped NPCs and it always has been, but the GoS + Shower combo just gets way too much attention.

Patrograd · Nov 30, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

GoS + Meteor Shower isn't the instant win a lot of people make it out to be. On its own, it won't even kill the archers. I'd trade a high-spec Putrid at VoD for GoS + Shower in a second.
.

All AOE stuff owns at VOD, like you say putrid is a really, really tasty VOD skill, so is surge and spiritual pain and pretty much anything else along those lines

Cunning · Nov 30, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Put Savage Shot on the archers = gg.

But as far as I know, the main 'exploits' are:

1. Catapulting over half the archers at 20:20 (or there abouts).
2. Aggroing some NPCs before they reach their destination, thus allowing your NPCs to get in position first.
3. Waiting till all the NPCs reach their destination and then dropping AoE on them.

Possible solutions:

1. Have each NPC come out in single file, separated by about 3 seconds.
2. Either prevent the NPCs from attacking until they reach their destination, or making them behave the same as the GL - by making both team's NPCs move at the same pace.
3. Make the NPCs spread out in a more irregular formation, at least to prevent more than half dying at once. Or put Savage Shot on them.

Those are my ideas.

Bankai · Nov 30, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

I'm still waiting for guilds to take Guilt to screw over the MS.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 30, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

I'm still waiting for guilds to take Guilt to screw over the MS.

Hi, I am hex removal have a nice day.

The thing about Glyph Sac + Met Shower is that they have to push up and aggro your NPCs, since they spread out once they actually hit the flagstand on most maps. If your build has coordinated you can punish them and force a wipe for this, so even if they get your NPCs they lose the flagstand battle. That or just bring AoE of your own - the game is largely about VoD at the moment anyway, so there's no reason not to bring tools that rock against NPCs at VoD.

Really I think this is the largest issue. At 20 minutes, VoD hits in almost every game between two teams anywhere near the same skill level. This encourages people to run VoD-centric builds because every game that matters is going to go to VoD.

I also think the NPCs get a bit too much credit. A lot of what makes matches end at VoD isn't the NPCs, it's the double damage mechanic. You usually get deaths at the flagstand before the NPCs even show up - double damage makes Guild Wars dangerous even with defensive builds, and one team or the other is going to wipe.

It might be interesting to make that mechanic happen over time, rather than all at once when VoD hits. Have the damage dealt gradually increase over time, so the game gets more and more dangerous as the match goes on. Right now, pre-VoD and post-VoD are completely different games with different builds and strategies that are effective. If the effects of VoD were made more gradual, you might see less of a chasm between "VoD builds" and everything else. You'd also see a lot less stalling in wait for the NPCs, because even if you pile on the defense things would be dying at the flagstand before the 20 minute mark hit.

The biggest negative to that kind of change is that it makes 321spike more powerful. That's not something I want to see happen, since brainless spike builds have already rocked face for the past two seasons.